Day 3&4
UPS dropped by my house a couple times leaving behind some very nice packages for me. As any gadget freak knows, half the enjoyment of buying online is the anticipation of the delivery, receiving and opening boxes, removing the shrink wrap, unwrapping the product packaging and finally reaching in and appreciating how great technology can be.
My living room is a total mess. I ransacked the packages and ripped up packing material, empty boxes and useless manuals are strewn all over the place.
Here are my first impressions of the various components:
- Intel Core i7 920 Nehalem 2.66ghz Quad-Core processor
What a gorgeous piece of hardware. I actually expected it to be much bigger, considering Intel somehow squashed four cores into one processor. One huge plus is that the processor doesn’t have a multitude of small pins on the bottom that interfaces with the motherboard. There was always the risk of bending them by mistake and ruining the processor.
- Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD4P motherboard
It’s not the prettiest motherboard I’ve seen. Gigabyte put too much effort into color coding, which ruins the overall aesthetic. The heatsinks and various parts seem very solid and well made. Like any $200+ motherboard, it’s jam packed with features. There are no cheap LGA1366 motherboards. They are all premium parts loaded with extras and top notch components. SIX ram slots. EIGHT SATA ports. EIGHT USB ports. Support for THREE graphics cards running in triple Crossfire or SLI. Ridiculous.
- 6GB OCZ DDR3 PC3-12800 1600mhz RAM
These sticks are almost gaudy with gold-colored metal covers. I love the idea that I’ll have SIX gigabytes of memory at my disposal. If I want, I could get three more sticks and have TWELVE gigabytes. I have no idea why I would need so much memory, but I love having the option.
- Corsair 650w TX power supply
Corsair is renowned for making some of the best power supplies and this one appears to be no exception. Solid and heavy construction with a buttload of wires, each covered with a black fabric mesh. It’ll be easy to do a good cable job that doesn’t look too messy.
- Cooler Master Centurion 534 Plus Mid Tower Case
For a $50 case, this is a well made product. Unfortunately, I’m used to playing with $100+ cases and I can see where Cooler Master made compromises. It looks very nice, expensive and clean. Definitely not one of those gaudy, overdesigned cases made for gamers who have no sense of style.
I have a major problem with the hard drive bays, unfortunately. The hard drive cage only holds three drives and they are all squashed together. That means it only holds two drives, if you care at all about cooling. There are two 3.5″ drive bays, but they are an extremely tight fit and not made for hard drives. I tried sticking a dead drive into one of the bays to see if it fits and it required far too much force, scratching up the drives completely. The case comes with FIVE 5.25″ drive bays. Why the heck would anyone need FIVE??
There are three locations for 120mm fans, which is good, but none of the openings in the case have dust filters. I’ll have to patch together some homemade filters.
The side panel has an air funnel for the CPU and a side fan, but both will have to be removed to make room for the monster CPU cooler.
- Scythe Mugen-2 SCMG-2000 CPU Cooler
Comparison with stock heatsink
This thing is a beast! I’m a little worried it’s not going to fit into my case, even though I did all the research beforehand. One thing I love about Scythe CPU coolers is that they are some of the best performers, but somehow they aren’t ridiculously overpriced. Some CPU coolers are $70+ dollars and many of them don’t deliver. On the downside, the way Scythe attaches the fan to the heatsink is really cheap and ugly. The baseplate has a mirror finish, which means hardcore cooler freaks shouldn’t have to do any extra work trying to get the cleanest connection between the heatsink and the CPU.
The BUILD
ARGH!!! ARGH!!
That’s all I can say right now. It took me six frigging hours to do this build…by far the longest and most frustrating build I’ve ever done. Luckily, I didn’t have any dead parts, but somehow I managed to entangle myself with what felt like every possible mishap and mistake. I basically built dozens of computers today because I kept putting it together and ripping it apart trying to troubleshoot every little problem.
Here is a sampling of some of the problems I encountered. Some problems, I had no idea how to fix, so I ripped the computer apart and put it back together again, hoping it would magically work (it did!!).
-
Motherboard with huge heatsink
The Scythe CPU cooler requires a weird and complicated installation and I messed up several times. The first couple times, I didn’t screw down hard enough to make a good connection between the CPU and the heatsink, resulting in 70+ celsius temperatures and immediate shutdowns. I’m getting good temperatures and the Mugen-2 is a cheap product, but I don’t recommend it unless you have a lot of patience.
- I have a lot of experience with ASUS and DFI motherboards, but this is my first Gigabyte. With the Gigabyte, I had to manually reset the CMOS over and over again. I’m used to a motherboard that automatically reboots to the last working configuration. I’m not happy with the Gigabyte motherboard right now.
- You won’t believe the variety of error sounds that I got from the motherboard. Long screeching noises that made me think the computer was going to explode….
- Numerous times, after doing yet another rebuild, I would forget to plug one power connector, resulting in yet another error message and more time wasted.
- Since the hard drive bay doesn’t have rubber or silicon parts to minimize vibration, the drives make far too much sound. I had to fudge together a craptastic fix to muffle the noise.
- When I finally got to the Windows 7 installation, I kept getting a Linux GRUB error message. I was booting from the Windows installation CD so it made no sense whatsoever. I tried various boot discs (Windows 7, Vista, XP) and even swapped out the DVD for an old fashioned IDE drive. No luck. It finally turned out that my Raptor (hard drive) had an old Linux installation, which I completely forget about it. If I’m booting from the DVD, I don’t know why it would get an error message from the hard drive, but it did. I eventually formatted the drive using another computer.
Finished!!
In any case, the build is done and Windows is running so smoothly, it brings tears to my eyes. No problems with drivers. No problems with incompatibilities so far. It’ll take me a while to get everything reinstalled and working the way I want, but I’m ecstatic.
I’m not that anal about doing a perfect wiring job, but it looks pretty good to me. In case I need to go in and fix something, I don’t want to zip tie anything or put too much effort into hiding the cabling.
For now, I’m letting the Core i7 run at stock speeds and using the Gigabyte software (EasyTune) to overclock. It’s at 3.2ghz right now. Honestly, I’m not sure EasyTune is even working, but everything is really fast and snappy. Everything loads so quickly.
Things I would do differently
Overall, it was a fun build (maybe a little frustrating, but the challenge is what makes it fun). I learned a lot and I’m sure my next build will be far more successful.
- Skip Gigabyte and go with an ASUS motherboard. Gigabyte recently held an overclocking competition and they picked the GA-EX58-UD4P as the platform. So obviously they think it’s a great overclocking board, but I don’t think it’s a very novice friendly board. I went with Gigabyte because I wanted to try a different brand, but I would recommend ASUS motherboards.
- Get a better case. The Cooler Master Centurion 534 is a good case, especially for the price ($50). But I am really picky about noise, vibrations, fans and dust. So I need a case that is better suited to my needs.
- Get a more user-friendly CPU heatsink. The Scythe Mugen-2 is a great heatsink, but it’s so difficult to install. My other choice for a cheap, but effective heatsink is the Xigmatek Dark Knight ($40). It also looks much better.
- Consider upgrading to SSD drives (Solid State). They are still really expensive, but soon enough, it will be affordable for the average person. The cheaper SSD’s ($100-$150) have too many problems right now. For many computers, especially at the high end, the hard drive is the weak link. With quality SSD’s, the difference is enormous.
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I`m building my own gaming pc on a budget of under £400, i think i have the best system for the budget i have, you can follow my progress at the squidoo lens.
Thanks for posting this! Quite a lot of similarities to the one I have mentally assembled, so this is good inspiration.
I am in the excitement stage of building my first rig. I don’t have all of the money together, yet, so this will be a long stage. But about your build, I’ve got a cooling question. How did you keep temperatures down without installing case fans (at least, I didn’t see any)? Did that massive heatsink do the trick for the whole case?
Also, as part of the excitement stage, I hope you don’t mind if I post my potential rig here in your comments. It will be the first time I have done so anywhere, and I figure you might also be able to help me with some pre-emptive troubleshooting. I call it . . . “The Bottlerocket”.
Processor:
Intel Core i7 920 2.66GHz LGA 1366 Quad-Core
Motherboard:
EVGA LGA 1366 Intel X58 MicroATX SLI
RAM:
6GB OCZ DDR3 PC3-12800 1600mhz
Video:
GeForce 9600GT 512MB PCI 2.0 SLI Low Profile (2)
Audio:
ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 Slim PCI w/Blu-ray Audio
Case:
Antec Minuet 350 Piano Black Steel MicroATX Slim
PSU:
350W 80PLUS Certified (w/case)
HD:
WD Caviar SE16 – 640GB – 7200 RPM SATA
CPU Fan:
ZALMAN CNPS 8700 NT 110mm Low Profile
Case Fan:
Scythe 120mm x 10mm Slim Case Fan (2)
Monitor:
ASUS VH202T-P 20″ 5ms Widescreen LCD
OS:
Vista Home Premium 64-bit for System Builders – OEM
Free Windows 7 Upgrade
Special/Weird – 5.25″ Bay Power Supply:
FSP Booster X5 450W SLI w/Dual Front Intake Fans
As you can see, everything is “micro” and “slim” and “low profile”, because I am hoping to fit it all into that Minuet 350 case. Does it look promising? Possible?
Thanks!
Oops, forgot the Optical Drive:
PLEXTOR Black 6X Blu-Ray Combo Drive SATA – OEM
Building a slim PC that’s capable is always a challenge. I think you’re off to a good start. The components look good to me, at least at a first glance.
Some thoughts…
1) Cooling is always an issue for slim. But where are you planning to put the 2 120mm case fans? I’m looking at pictures of the case at newegg.com and I don’t see anywhere you can stick ‘em.
2) The secondary PSU is an interesting idea…but the case only has one 5.25″ drive bay, the external one where you’d normally put the optical drive. I’ve never heard of that manufacturer, so check to see if the PSU is reliable in the long-term.
3) For the hard drive and the monitor, I always say bigger is better. Hard drive and LCD prices are always dropping. Why only 20″? That’s tiny!!
4) You might have problems installing the sound card, depending on the graphics card. If the graphic cards are slim enough to fit the sound card, you might have an issue with cooling. The sound card might not provide enough space.
5) Since it is a slim PC and cooling is probably going to be a problem, don’t go too crazy with overclocking. You can overclock, but try to avoid increasing the voltage, which is usually what leads to cooling problems.
6) What do you plan to do with this computer? Do you really need two graphics cards? If it’s primarily for home theater (the usual purpose for slim PC’s), I’d think it’s better to stick with one card (quieter and cooler).
Wow, thanks for the super fast reply.
Yes, I did know that I was facing a challenge, trying to build my own little “super-console-studio”. My initial goal was simply to use it for my graphic design projects and a secondary “studio-lite” for some MIDI recording. But as I got into the project, doing research, I found myself whisked into the land of PC games. Once I laid eyes on Crysis, I had to have it.
But on to your post.
1. Fans. Hehe, I was hoping you could tell me! At 10mm, they are the slimmest fans I could find, but I have no idea how/where to install fans. Could I install one, maybe? Any possible solutions you can think of?
2. You make a great point about the 5.25″ slot, also. I have read good things in the forums about FSP power supplies, so I am only relying on popular opinion, I suppose. It’s a shame to lose such a cool piece to this puzzle (it even had intake fans). Hmm, I guess it’s back to the drawing board on this piece.
3. Yeah, I might end up going with a larger hard drive/monitor, but they are not that important to me, I guess. I would rather see things beautifully than hugely, tho. Crysis tends to run better on lower resolutions, doesn’t it? But I’ll consider it. That could change. Still, I think it’s more likely I will upgrade the hard drive.
4. Ah, yes. Card size issues. Being that I have never built such a machine, I just read up and found that I needed all low-profile cards for a Micro board. You’re saying they might be too fat? Hehe, well that sucks. My only thinking was that EVGA probably would not make an SLI board in such a way that it couldn’t fit SLI properly, would they? Wouldn’t most people running SLI also need a sound card? Seems weird, but thanks for pointing that out!
5. Regarding overclocking, I don’t know much about it, but I had in mind to run the graphics cards SLI and stock. I figured that would be fine for my needs. At any rate, I guess I definitely won’t be worrying about overclocking.
6. So yeah, my purposes have been diverted from being a slim little graphics/recording machine, to a (kinda) full-blown mid-range gaming rig. I want to be able to play Crysis in its full glory. Maybe not the highest screen resolution (a benefit of having a smaller monitor, in my opinion), but the better AA and graphics settings, at least.
Man, I can’t thank you enough for your help with this. I’m actually encouraged by your response, as I thought it might be completely blown out of the water, whereas it sounds like it just needs some tweaking. Please feel free to suggest any ideas or thoughts you have for this rig in the next few days/weeks. Think of it as a fun little challenge, right? I’ll definitely come back to see what you think.
Thanks again!
Some ideas, after my first round of headbanging.
1. Fans. I found an Evercool 60mm x 10mm, which looks promising. Would this be any better?
2. The only thing I can think to do (as I don’t think I can find another power supply + fan solution) is keep the power supply in the 5.25″ bay, and get an external Blu-ray drive. PLEXTOR makes one that looks nice and seems to be well-liked. HP also supposedly has one that is extremely slim, but it’s hard to find, and I wonder whether it would perform as well. Not ideal, but would it work?
That’s all for now. Look forward to your thoughts!
I can offer some suggestions and raise concerns, but I haven’t personally built a low profile computer before and I’m not familiar with every component or potential problem. It’s probably best for you to find an active home theater PC forum where I’m sure you’ll find others who faced the same challenges.
But I’ll be happy to help with what I can…
1. The problem with the fans is that there is no place to put them. The case has a vent on the top (to supply air for the CPU fan), a vent on the side (already comes with a 80mm fan) and the powersupply (already included). Unless you are planning to cut open another hole, you’re out of options.
Since you aren’t planning on overclocking and you’re not running high powered graphics cards, maybe cooling won’t be an issue. The fans that come with the system might be just fine.
2. Ya, having just one 5.25″ bay limits your options. Are you really set on the Minuet case? Maybe there’s another slim form that is configured with 2 bays…it’s possible, but likely bigger.
3. The reason why I talk about a bigger monitor is because people tend to keep their monitors for a long time. They upgrade and throw away their computers, but the monitors stick around. I still have my 17″ and 19″ 4:3 LCD’s from a long, long time ago. My parents and brother are using them now.
Having a bigger monitor really does make a real impact on your enjoyment of games and your day-to-day work.
But hey, it’s up to you. I can see your point about having a lower native resolution being a positive. But I’d personally pick the bigger monitor with the higher resolution. You aren’t gaming all the time. The rest of the time, you’ll appreciate the bigger size and extra pixels.
By the way, this is a random thought, but have you considered a dual monitor setup? It looks geeky as hell, but I LOVE having two monitors. It is so insanely useful.
4. I took a look again at the low profile cards and ya, I think the sound card should fit. The 9600gt is not a hot card. I just wanted you to be absolutely sure everything fits before you buy…I guess you can already return things that don’t fit, but that’s a pain.
Since you are going low profile, it does dramatically limit your choices. I normally recommend against SLI for a new computer. It’s almost always better to get one card that’s more powerful.
By the way, do you really need that sound card? I’m not familiar with it, but it’s rather expensive. The motherboard comes with built-in sound and it might be all you need.
Check the input/outputs on the motherboard and sound card to see that they match your requirements.
5. With the CPU, you don’t need to worry about overclocking…at least not right now. It’s a great CPU. Maybe in the future, if your system starts to feel sluggish, you can look into OC’ing. It’s not hard to do and can result in real performance gains.
Um…that’s about all I can think off right now.
Good luck!
I don’t know if sound is a concern for you. I hate loud computers, so I always put a lot of effort into getting the most quiet components.
Little 60mm fans tend to be whiny…you’ll have to run them slow to avoid excess noise.
As for an external blu-ray…that kinda defeats the point of having a small case, right? (I’m still not sure why you want a low profile case.) Is it for aesthetic reasons? Or space constraints? But if you don’t mind an external drive, that should be fine.
Man, you have been a huge help. Thanks so much. When I get all of the parts, I will try to come back and update you.
1. I think I will nix the fans for now. If I need them, at least I now know what a project it will be!
2. I will look into this. But I would rather run the optical drive externally than get a case much bigger. I dunno, for some reason I just really want a nice short, slim little case. Maybe for LAN parties? Haha.
3. Hehe, I will think on it!
4. Yeah, as far as low-profile goes, I think the 9600GT is as good as it gets. I figured I’d run it SLI to make sure it could handle Crysis.
And as far as the sound card goes, I think it will be helpful in my recording and Blu-ray watching. I’ve also read a few articles that mention upgrading your sound card to accommodate some of the newer and upcoming games.
5. Awesome, that’s what I was thinking.
6. I don’t think noisiness is big to me, but maybe I’ve just never heard a loud computer. I have an XBOX 360 which is pretty loud, though (I think there’s something wrong with it), and it doesn’t really bother me.
Again, I appreciate the help! Will update you as soon as things get going.
So, after some deliberation, I think I might part with the Minuet 350. A moment of silence, please.
Yeah, I think it’s too limiting, mainly because of the single 5.25″ drive bay. If I can find a SFF case with two 5.25″ bays, I think I’ll be in business. Any ideas?
I’d go to newegg.com and browse through the cases. Use the advanced search to filter the results to match your requirements.
Okay, some crises(sp?) have been averted!
I’ve decided to go with the Silverstone SUGO SG02 Black case. This is an interesting solution, because it was one of the only small-form-factor cases I could find with two 5.25″ bays (one of which could hold my weird bay PSU). But as it turns out, the SG02 (1) doesn’t come with a stock PSU at all, and (2) can hold a much larger standard ATX PSU, anyway.
Along with some changes in the fan/cooling situation, I think this might be a real gamechanger.
Thoughts?
Haha, so I think I need more ferv0r! Here’s the update:
Silverstone SUGO SG02F SFF Case
Intel Core i7 920 Processor
EVGA Intel X58 MicroATX SLI Motherboard
6GB OCZ DDR 1600mhz RAM
EVGA GeForce 9800GT 1GB 256-bit SLI Video Card (2)(?)
OCZ ModXStream Pro 700W SLI / 80 PLUS Modular PSU
Western Digital Caviar SE16 640GB 7200RPM Drive
ENERMAX 80mm Case Fan (3)
LG Black 8X BD-ROM Internal Drive
ASUS Xonar HDAV1.3 Slim Audio Card w/Blu-ray
ZALMAN CNPS 8700 2-Ball CPU Cooler
Sooo, as you can see, the new case changed some things. First off, it supports full height graphics cards. I had to be careful on the length, though, because only one slot supports length beyond 9.5″. Since I am still considering SLI, I went with the 9800GT. It’s not as fast as the 200GTX models, or even the 9800GTX, but those others are too long for SLI, even if I wanted to wait and expand later. So my fastest possible config is a 9800GTX2 setup. At least, that’s how I figure it.
The case also comes with no PSU, and supports “full size” ATX power supplies, although I had to juggle with some different models of Blu-ray drives and PSU’s (the optical drive and the PSU could only have a combined depth of 355mm).
Also, the case is built with three 80mm fan mounts, and seemingly a little more space to improvise with cooling.
So, what do we think, now? Better? More problems?
I do appreciate all the time you have invested.
1. My primary concern is your desire to go with SLI. Really, it’s just a huge pain to set up a SLI system that runs smooth and stable all the time.
For the price of 2 9800gt’s, you can get a Radeon HD 4890 or a Geforce GTX 275. Both of these cards are great and should run Crysis fine.
By the way, the Radeon HD 4890 is 9.5″ long, but you’d need a Crossfire capable motherboard.
Here is a page from a review of both cards that benchmarks their performance running Crysis. The CPU is a i7 965, but the i7 920 shouldn’t be too far behind.
http://www.techspot.com/review/164-radeon-4890-vs-geforce-gtx275/page4.html
But hey, it’s up to you. I’ve had some rather iffy experiences with SLI, so maybe I’m just soured on the idea.
2. Silverstone is a well regarded case manufacturer (my HTPC uses a Silverstone), so that is probably fine. They are typically more expensive, but the build quality usually merits the price.
3. OCZ is a great PSU manufacturer, so that should be fine. Modular is a good idea for a SFF.
4. Regarding the case fans, that would be something I’d upgrade slowly over time. See how your system is performing (and cooling) and add fans if necessary.
5. I’m still not sold on why you’d need a $150 sound card.
1. Okay, you’ve convinced me to ditch the SLI. If I need to upgrade my system in a few years, I guess I’ll just buy the GTX475 Ultra and replace it, right?
Also, in my two weeks of reading and researching I’ve somehow become an NVIDIA fanboy. So it looks like the (much longer) GTX275 will be the ticket. There is one version with 896MB and one with 1792MB, I believe. Is this a major difference, you think?
2. That’s good news about the case. It took a while, but I think I’ve come to really love its interesting shape.
3. Glad to see you support the PSU choice, as that was by far the most difficult to track down, research-wise. There are so-freaking-many of them. And people seem to either love or hate their PSU. Sometimes both. Weeding through dozens of Editor’s Choice reviews, followed by verbal lashings at other sites does wear on the soul.
Bytheway, when it comes to tech reviews, whose word to you tend to regard as trustworthy? I’ve read lots of Tom’s Hardware, HardOCP, and a few others. Just curious.
4. Sounds good to me, although they are a fairly minor investment, at $8 or so dollars a piece.
5. Ha! Yeah, we musicians are a tragic bunch. I am just a real audiophile, I guess. For your sake, though, I will make it my last purchase, if I still feel the urge.
So I think I’m starting to feel really good about this build. Here it is with your suggestions, and a few alterations.
Silverstone SUGO SG02F SFF Case
Intel Core i7 920 Processor
EVGA Intel X58 MicroATX SLI Motherboard
6GB OCZ DDR 1600mhz RAM
EVGA GeForce GTX 275 1792MB Video Card
OCZ ModXStream Pro 700W SLI / 80 PLUS Modular PSU
Western Digital Caviar Black 750GB 7200 RPM Drive
ENERMAX 80mm Case Fan (?)
LG Black 8X BD-ROM Internal Drive
ZALMAN CNPS 8700 2-Ball CPU Cooler (?)
For the record, the motherboard is also equipped for Crossfire. I just never added it, since I was using NVIDIA cards. Also, should I go ahead and invest in the ZALMAN CPU Cooler up front? Or should I try the stock CPU cooler first, and then upgrade?
Unless you’ve got any other concerns, I think this will likely be my build. What do you think? Thanks again!
1. Just a few thoughts re: SLI. SLI is better regarded as an upgrade path, not a starting point. As an initial investment, it’s better to get the best single board you can now. Less of a headache for installation and an easy upgrade path later.
It also depends on your rate of upgrades. Personally, I find that by the time I want to upgrade my graphics system, technology has advanced enough that I’d rather buy a brand new videocard and replace the one I have.
As for your question re: videocard memory…1792mb is an almost ridiculous amount of memory. I haven’t researched it myself, but I doubt any game right now would take advantage of that much.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/evga-gf-gtx275-1792mb_14.html#sect0
It’s an article that has charts comparing the performance of the 896MB versus the 1792MB. There is basically no difference. So I’d say the better choice is the 896mb. It does mention that the 1792mb performs better at 2560×1600 resolution, but that resolution is really only for the ultimate hardcore and they’d be buying a more expensive graphics card, anyways.
As for nVidia vs ATI, if the ATI card better suits your needs, that might be the better choice. Both companies are highly regarded and ATI’s latest series of cards (4xxx) are all very well reviewed. I don’t think you’d be going wrong.
As always for me, a big concern is noise. A lot of videocards are annoyingly noisy because they come with tiny fans that whine. I haven’t researched the cards under consideration though.
2. By the way, have you looked at the barebones systems? It comes with a lot of parts built-in and sometimes it can work better or be cheaper. Shuttle is highly regarded (but really expensive).
3. Tom’s Hardware and HardOCP are both good. Umm…Anandtech is another one. There are a lot of great tech sites. Generally, when I research components, I look at multiple reviews, instead of relying on just one. So if a product is highly rated by multiple sites, then it’s a great choice.
5. Ah, an audiophile…that would explain the desire to get an expensive sound card. There is so much interference inside a computer and it can be difficult to get a clean signal. Getting a separate audiocard is definitely a good idea.
6. Re: the cooler…the stock cooler for the i7 is actually quite decent. If you look at reviews of the Zalman CNPS 8700, I’m sure they compare it with the stock cooler. Personally, since I’m lazy, I buy the cooler with the CPU because it’s a HUGE pain to go in later and replace it.
7. Lastly, I do recommend that you post your build and get advice from the forums of the websites you mentioned (hardocp, etc.) I’m glad I could help, but I’m not a professional in this field. The hardcore techie websites are filled with experts who might have some better suggestions.
Good luck!!
1. Yeah, I think you’re right. And after a lot of pain and heartache, I finally decided to go with the HD 4890. It seemed to make more sense with my system.
But no sooner had I finished patting myself on the back for such a decisive maneuver than I realized there are 20+ flavors of the 4890, and each is being reviewed slightly differently. Some are hotter than others, or louder than others, or faster than others, or more overclocked than others. Sigh.
But I think I have decided to go with the Sapphire HD 4890 Toxic. It is well-reviewed for its quiet and cool performance. Have you read about any particularly good models?
2. Yes, I did actually look at the Shuttle barebones systems. But two thoughts kept me away. First, at a passing glance, they seemed better tailored to more traditional HTPC machines (not focused on gaming) because of their smaller power supplies and ITX motherboards. But maybe I just didn’t look closely enough. And secondly, I thought to myself, “Well, where’s the fun in that!?”
I know; my logic is airtight on that second point.
3. I have read a lot of Anandtech. I am review junkie, anyway, so I enjoy reading even the more obscure review sites.
6. Hmm, I’ll have to think on this one. I’m not sure how tall a CPU cooler the SG02F will support, and the low profile cooler I found does not fit the 1366 socket. They have a 1366 socket kit at ZALMAN, but I don’t want to over-complicate things.
7. And now that it has been through the ringer a few times, I feel like less of a dope posting it in a few hardcore techie forums. We’ll see how many snarky remarks I can get in the first 24 hours.
8. Oh, wait. One more tiny thing about the large memory video cards (as there is also a GB version of the 4890). I know that additional memory would not likely allow me faster framerates. But would more memory allow me to increase AA and quality settings with losing frames? Would the 1GB card already handle max settings? Just curious.
1. Heh, pain and heartache?
2. Ya, I agree that it’s a lot more fun to build as much as you can.
6. Ah, that’s right. I forgot that a lot of coolers don’t support the 1366 socket yet. Sorry, not sure what to suggest. There are sooooo many coolers that it’s impossible to keep track of all of them.
7. Hopefully some of the hardcores can offer some product suggestions.
8. From my experience, clock speed is far more important for overall performance (including AA, quality, etc.) You just need enough memory to handle the game…any more is overkill.
Anyways, 1GB seems like the standard configuration for the 4890. That’s plenty.
By the way, I hope the fact that the 4890 is a two slot graphics card isn’t a problem for the case.
6. Yeah, you’re not kidding. Even a review junkie like myself gets blurred vision reading about them all. Luckily, height restrictions help weed some of them out!
8. Yeah, I’m not too worried about it, anymore. I will probably just use it stock. I think the HD4890 will give great performance for my needs. I’m sure even “decent,” to a hardcore gamer will be fine for me.
Man, thanks for everything! You really helped give my build legs, and I have been getting great advice in the forums. I have some updates and changes to run by you, but I’ll have to come back and post them later.
As I really nail down the details of my build, I am planning to buy it little by little. I’m hoping to do it in a logical way, though. As of now, I’m thinking I should buy the case and the mother board first. This way I can see the size and space relationship, and take some measurements. I can use the measurements and harsh realities of real life to make sure the other components will be a good fit.
Do you ever take this approach? What do you recommend?
Update: I bought my first parts!
Yeah, they’re nothing fancy, but it’s a start. Also, I think I’ve finally got my build laid out. I cut back a teensy bit in a few areas, but overall, I think I’m really happy with it.
Lian Li V351 Case
Intel Core i7 920 Processor
EVGA Intel X58 MicroATX SLI Motherboard
3 – 2GB OCZ DDR 1600mhz RAM
HIS HD4870 1GB IceQ 4+ Video Card
Silverstone ST70F 700W Modular PSU
Xilence 3.5″ Fan Controller
Western Digital Caviar Black 640GB 7200RPM Drive
2 – 120mm YS Tech Case Fan [131 cfm, 45 dB]
1 – 80mm Silverstone FM83 Case Fan [74 cfm, 41.2 dB]
LG Black 8X BD-ROM Internal Drive
Corsair H50 Hydro PSU Cooler
Corsair H50 Hydro PSU Cooler [PAID]
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/9138/ex-wat-145/Corsair_Hydro_Series_H50_High_Performance_CPU_
Cooler_Sockets_L3GA_775_1366_AM2_AM_CWCH50.html
Xilence 3.5″ Fan Controller [PAID]
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8396/bus-176/Xilence_35_3_Channel_Fan_Controller_ZUB-XP-FCP.html
Great. It looks very good to me. All solid components.
I haven’t heard of the Corsair water cooler, but that looks very cool. I’ll definitely check it out for my next build. Usually water cooling is such a pain, but since the H50 is a closed system, no need to worry about leaking. Looks like performance is great, especially for the price.
Lian Li makes some of the best cases. For cooling, YS Tech is known for good quiet fans. Great to have a fan controller. The PSU is top-notch.
I think you’ll be very happy with this computer. Good luck with the build!!
Thanks, buddy! I’ve got you and a dozen only-half-snarky forum geniuses to thank.
As I said, I will try to post some photos of the build and the final when the time comes. But in the meantime . . . can you recommend any games I should look into? Anything from the last year or two especially?
I think I’d be interested in some FPS/tactical/RPG style games. And I am sucker for awesome graphics.
Probables:
- Crysis + Warhead
- COD: Modern Warfare
Considerations:
- Far Cry 2
- I Am Alive (2010?)
I heard some really good things about the Rainbow Six series a few years ago, but I don’t think the visuals are great by modern standards. Is there anything (besides COD) that is comparable? And what about racing “sims” like Grid, Forza, NFS: Shift, or Dirt? Are they a good fit for PC? Other simpler stuff like The Sims 3 I may pick up later, but not as my bread and butter.
So. What have you got?
I can’t play most FPS (I get motion sickness), so my experience with that genre is extremely limited.
Hmm….
Fallout 3, Bioshock, The Orange Box, Left 4 Dead, Mass Effect (older, but worth playing), Dead Space. Assassin’s Creed is a bit older, but still gorgeous and it’s an action adventure game. For strategy games, Company of Heroes and Empire: Total War are two of the best, but strategy games aren’t really known for having the best graphics.
That should keep you busy and happy for a long, long time. If you are a big fan of multiplayer online shooters, COD, The Orange Box and L4D is all you need.
Since you are new to PC gaming, you might also want to look into MMORPG’s, which is how I spend most of my online gaming time.
You would probably enjoy just looking at the PC section of metacritic.com and reading the various reviews yourself.
http://www.metacritic.com/games/pc/scores/ is a HUGE list of ratings for practically every PC game released in recent history.
Hey ferv0r!
Well, of course no build is complete without plenty of waffling, right?
So I have been considering going a step further with my hard drive situation. Maybe a flight of steps. In my Newegg cart at the moment, I have not this:
(1) 640GB WD Caviar Black 7200 RPM HD
but this:
(1) 1TB WD Caviar Black 7200 RPM HD
(1) 150GB WD VelociRaptor 10000 RPM HD
And as if that wasn’t crazy enough, I’m beginning to wonder about this RAID 0 business. So, what do you know about RAID 0? Should I consider it? And what do you think about this upgrade?
So, I’ve done a little research, and it looks like running RAID would be a huge waste with these two hard drives. The 10000 RPM drive would function as a 7200 RPM drive, and the 1TB drive would function as a 150GB drive.
So, this was basically the least efficient, most expensive combination possible!
That said, it seems like maybe I should just let go of the 10000 RPM drive, and run two cheaper 1TB 72000 RPM drives in RAID, right? Or am I missing something?
What’s the purpose of thinking about setting up a RAID? Speed?
If so, how about one of the new SSD’s? Not cheap, but the prices have fallen quite a bit over the past several years. With a good SSD, the performance gains are ridiculous.
You’d also need another drive, like the 1tb 7200, for storage.
Getting the 150gb velociraptor for the primary files is a good idea…lots of people do that.
I think it’s more common to get two identical drives for a RAID 1 setup. Big boost in speed and reliability.
I’ve always thought RAID 0 is a big risk. If one drive fails, you lose everything.
Yeah, I think you’re right about RAID. RAID 0 is too risky, and RAID 1 is too much of a waste, I think. Until I am serious enough to set up a 3+ hard drive array (RAID 5, etc.), I will probably pass.
Re: SSD’s, I still think they are asking too much for too little space. Some of the $200+ SSD’s are barely big enough for an OS!
I am thinking I will go with the VelociRaptor as my main disk, and use the 1TB drive for storage. Probably the best “bang for my buck”, to use forum terminology. Any thoughts?
Yup, the velociraptor + 1tb is probably the best choice…it’s what most gamers would have picked.
I’m anxiously waiting for SSD prices to drop into the reasonable range. The performance gains are so huge. The hard drive is one of the biggest bottlenecks in our computers. I was drooling when I was researching SSD’s a while back. Some people built huge raid arrays using a bunch of SSD’s and it was insane.
Yeah, it sounds like they are the most promising storage technology. Advancements in computing are amazing these days, and I’m sure it won’t be long before they are standard fare. Re: technology, I am even saving some of my more tech-intensive purchases (video card, processor) in hopes that prices may go down a bit by the time I get to them (with DX11 upon us).
But I’ve got another question. Since I’m doing two hard drives, I was hoping to keep the OS on the VelociRaptor and install most other stuff (Program Files, My Documents, etc.) on the 1TB so things stay fast and organized.
I have read different ways of doing this, some very tedious (constantly copying and deleting every install) and some very “techy” (using symbolic links/junctions, editing the registry). I have saved a few tutorials with some seemingly good methods, but I wondered if this was a consideration for you. Do you keep files segregated any special way, or do you have any particular system? Just wondering.
If you buy from a good dealer, they might refund you some money if the price drops in the next month or something.
As for your question…
No, I’m too messy (and too lazy, heh). I did build my system with an old raptor (75gb) for my OS/program files/documents…and a 750gb for storage. I was planning to upgrade to SSD at some point, so I didn’t drop the cash for a velociraptor. So it’s like your setup…just slower. Unfortunately, the raptor is a couple generations old now and it’s not that much faster than the new 7200rpm drives. I try to keep it as clean and defragged as possible.
I’m not sure how much it will help to try some of the methods you described. You might save some time when booting up or loading programs, but you’ll waste time keeping everything organized.
Hehe, yeah, this is my first computer that will be all my own, so maybe it’s a little overboard. My real concern, tho, is that eventually my big programs (Adobe Creative Suite, etc.) will take up the room on my C:/ and I’ll be forced to do some management. I’m thinking at that point it will be more of a pain than if I had just dealt with it up front. I dunno.
But actually with junctions and symlinks, it seems like it’s not that much more work, really. Just a one-time matter of pointing the OS to another folder (D:/), and then letting it take care of itself. Since most programs will allow you to install on an alternate drive, I would only have a handful that might be an annoyance to move over. We’ll see what I think once everything is running, tho. I might have had it with computers by then!
Update: So, I think this gradual buying thing is the absolute best way to go about a first build. Look how far I’ve come!
[In brackets I've tried to estimate the order of purchase. Feel free to suggest a different order if something makes better sense.]
Antec Mini P180 [1]
EVGA X58 SLI/CF MicroATX Board [3]
Silverstone ST70F 700W PSU [4]
Core i7 920 [5]
1TB WD Caviar Black HD [6]
150GB WD VelociRaptor HD [7]
Diamond Radeon HD4890 [5]
Corsair H50 Hydro Cooler [PAID]
Xilence 3.5″ Fan Controller [PAID]
6GB OCZ Gold DDR3 RAM [8]
LG 21.5″ 1080P LCD Monitor [9]
Panasonic Slot Blu-Ray Drive [2]
Man, I don’t know exactly how it happened, but somehow I ended up reading about the Mini P case on some review site. One good look at its black powder-coated pristine innerworkings and I was smitten. And site after site just raved. Yeah, it’s a little bigger, but what a glorious piece of hardware. When I found that it was on sale at Newegg for $80, that sealed it. It will probably be my next purchase.
Also, the slot-loading Blu-ray drive I found seems to be one of the only ones still in production for desktop PC’s (not sure why), and it was just too cool to pass up.
So, there’s the update. As always, feedback is welcome!
I would never be able to do a gradual buy. I’d be looking at the products that arrived already and want to assemble it and play with it right now. Waiting would be agony, heh.
Funny that you ended up with a case that’s nearly the same size as a normal mid tower. It should be a very nice case and it looks slick. It should also be a much easier build since you’ll have more room inside to maneuver. Heh, I want that case now too.
By the way, Adobe CS is huge for an application, but you should have plenty of room left over. It is always a good idea to be organized and if that can also keep your primary drive running fast and smooth, that’s great.
What really eats up space are the games. I have most of my games installed on my storage drive because my primary drive is so small and I play too many games.
Topic of the week: Monitor Resolution!
So, I’ve been around the forums, and it has recently occurred to me that a 16:9 aspect ratio is not the only option for widescreen LCD’s. In fact, in my opinion, 16:9 monitors (though “nice” for movie viewing) are sort of a teeny tiny scam in my opinion, heh. I had gotten quite used to reading this: “Watch movies in FULL 1080P, with NO BLACK BARS!” Oooh, ahhhh. And then it hit me. Who cares if there are black bars?
In fact, I should treasure those black bars. That’s precious screen real estate these guys are bad mouthing! Yes, I had to admit I had been dooped by great marketing to believe that I actually WANTED a smaller screen, heh. After comparing sizes, I think I would much rather go with a 16:10 LCD. But there’s still a problem.
If I am looking in th 23″ or 24″ range, I’ve got 1920×1200 and I’ve got 1680×1050. What to do? The higher resolution seems like the natural choice, but screen resolution can be a confusing matter. I know the 4890/275 is very capable of gaming almost anything at this resolution, but will it be good for normal tasks, also? Or will I have to lower the resolution to 1680×1050 for viewing documents/websites, etc.?
I have read quite a lot of discussion about whether clarity and quality is significantly degraded when you do this. I am wondering, does it not look the same as if I had bought a 1680×1050 monitor (but only comparably “degraded” as compared to a 1920×1200 resolution)? Or is there really some fundamental rule about lowering native resolution that makes things go bizarro?
Prices on the 16:10’s are significantly higher, though, it seems. Heh, I guess I could just get 25″ 16:9 and call it a day.
I found a 24.6″ 16:9 Hanns-G for $200 (I probably could do better on the price). I feel like I am familiar with the brand, but I’m not sure. You?
Yup, the 16:9, which is becoming more and more popular, is a downgrade for PC users. We’re used to the 16:10 format. More pixels is almost always a good thing. Also a 22″ 16:9 is smaller than a 22″ 16:10, even though they are both labeled as 22″.
There is nothing wrong with using a 16:9 as a PC monitor. Realistically, the difference isn’t that big.
It also makes sense that the 16:9 would be cheaper because it’s the same panels used to make LCD TV’s.
Since you’re investing in a blu-ray drive, you probably want to get a monitor capable of at least 1080p (1920×1080).
Of course your graphics card will be perfectly happy at 1080p resolutions for your normal everyday work. Gaming is far more intensive.
Hanns-G is the most budget LCD brand. That means you get a decent LCD at rock bottom prices. But it’s a bit of a gamble. Many people are happy with their Hanns-G monitor, but some people have nightmare experiences. Usually customer service and quality are subpar when you buy from budget labels.
I actually used a 42″ 1080p Westinghouse LCD monitor as my primary computer monitor for a long time. It was obscene to have such a huge monitor sitting on my desk. Westinghouse is another budget brand. For most games and my day to day use, it worked just fine, but eventually I started to get more sensitive to the response time, which was a bit subpar. I moved the TV to my bedroom and bought a 24″ 16:10 Samsung. It does perform better.
I wouldn’t recommend the Hanns-G. For $220, the Asus 24″ is a better choice.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236049
Asus is a well known computer brand and that monitor is highly reviewed as well.
I had to LOL at the image of your 42″ monitor lighting up your entire office, hallway, and driveway.
I didn’t realize that Hanns-G was so inconsistent, so that’s great info. I think you’re absolutely right about the Asus monitor, also. Funnily, I had my eye on it for a little while, and I must have forgotten about it. Just in case I run into any deals at Best Buy (or some similar place), what are some other brands that I can trust?
My impression so far is that these seem to be very good values: LG, Asus, Acer, and Samsung. As an aside, different models can sometimes throw me with their slight price differences. I always try to find the reason that one Asus 24″ is $40 more in the same shop, for example, but sometimes I can’t figure it out. What should I look for? As of right now, I look for:
Screen Size (bigger typically being better)
Resolution (higher typically being better)
Aspect Ratio (16:10 typically being better)
Response Time (though I question whether I could tell 2ms from 8ms)
Contrast Ratio (though again I question my powers of perception)
And then obviously things like brand and styling. But if I can’t spot the difference there, I’m stumped.
Oh, and RE: the graphics card, should I expect to have to lower the resolution to 1680×1050 for gaming? I know Crysis and Warhead stand somewhat alone as The Unplayables, but what about:
Fallout 3
Far Cry 2
Modern Warfare 2
Mass Effect 1/2
H.A.W.X.
Will these be too challenging at 1920×1080? Not sure about H.A.W.X., bytheway, but I’d like to have a good cockpit combat game . . . any suggestions?
I would agree that LG, Asus, Acer and Samsung are all good and safe buys. A lot of name brands have competitive prices, because there is a lot of competition in the 20″-24″ market.
I would definitely get at least a 1080p. For everyday work, there is a huge difference between 1920×1200 and 1680×1050. You are getting a pretty powerful computer, so I think a lot of games should run just fine at 1920×1200.
If you buy a 1920×1200 (or 1920×1080) and you’re forced to downgrade the resolution to 1680×1050 to get a decent framerate, it’s not that bad. It doesn’t look as sharp, but it’s an acceptable compromise, IMO. Having the extra pixels when you want it is really nice.
24″ is a good price point right now, but 22″ is fine if you want to save a little money. There are some pretty good deals at 25.5″ too.
I don’t know if Crysis is so unplayable anymore. It was released in late 2007, so the hardware has had some time to catchup.
I think you should be able to run all of those games at 1920×1080. Maybe not at the highest settings, but I’m sure you’ll be able to find one that works for you.
Sorry, but I don’t play flying games. I’m pretty sure they would make me violently ill, heh.
Strangely enough i have read through this and I have to agree with ferv0r that you should go for more than less because when you need it it is there.
1080p monitor is diffinately the way to go as you will be playing bluy ray movies and guess what thay are usually in 1080p.
I am in the process of building my i7 rig also and i am in the phase of research and information absorbtion.
My rig:
Case:
Coolermaster Cosmos s [A BEAST]
CPU:
Core i7 920 [will overclock to 3.4/6]
Mobo:
Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD4P [i know you said ASUS but i have PAID already]
RAM:
Corsair Dominator 6GB
PSU:
Coolermaster 900W UCP [probably too high]
Cooler:
Coolermaster V8 CPU Cooler [A BEAST]
HDD:
cavier black 500GB [still deciding or RAID or Raptors]
GPU
Undecided yet but 4870/4890 in mind but being pushed to 275GTX
All of this worked out quite cheap.
About the motherboard ASUS p6t is the one everyone is using but there are different ones that made it confusing for me.
@Ozay
1. The Cosmos seems like a great case, and huge. You should have an easy time with this build. Coolermaster makes solid cases.
2. Nothing wrong with the Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD4P motherboard. That’s the one I’m using and there are plenty of other people who use it too.
3. 900W is probably more than you need, but it is better to get too much rather than too little. A good PSU can last you for a long time. You can even use it for your next computer.
4. Coolermaster V8 CPU Cooler is enormous. Make sure it will fit on your motherboard. Make sure it fits your case too.
5. You’ll be perfectly happy with either the 4890 or the 275GTX. They are comparable in performance, so just go with the one that you like better or is cheaper.
Thank you for the reply ferv0r.
1. About the case, i have liked that case for a long time now so the size doesn’t matter to me.
2. I am actually quite happy with the purchase of it and i have read that it is overclockable with no problems. If anything, its is packed full of features but you will know that so.
3. You are right about the PSU and besides I might go for SLI/CF in the future the extra power will come in handy.
4. Yup, its not a small cooler and its not going into a small case either so it will fit. It has to, i will make it. Having said that, have you seen the V10? That has a memory cooler. Its not a beast more like a behemoth.
5. The reason am undesided was 275GTX having the cuda. What do you think of the Cuda? And both cards are comparable in price so its down to which one gives me the best [BANG FOR BUCK]
Oh and Wow there is rush you get when building you first BEASTLY machine. The surge of excitement and anticipation is something to be experienced. I like it…I like it A LOT.
4. Hah, that V10 is ridiculous.
Oh, did you look at all at the Corsair Hydro H50 CPU Cooler. It’s a closed water cooling system and it seems really slick.
5. I did play around with the CUDA capabilities of my card (8800gt), but right now, there aren’t that many applications that support it. But I do think that will change. It makes perfect sense for other applications and not just games to take advantage of the powerful GPU processors.
Both nVidia and AMD offer great cards. If you are interested in CUDA, that’s as good a reason as any to buy the nVidia card.
6. And ya, I totally understand what you are talking about regarding the excitement and anticipation. That’s a huge part of why building your own computer is so fun.
Hey ferv0r, so I finally got my case! Heh, man I love it. You are absolutely right, tho, it is HARD having it there and not tinkering with it or putting something inside of it.
I have installed the H50 (with two fans in push-pull) and another case fan up front. That 200mm fan is a monster. Heh, it kinda scared me when I first saw it.
But anyway, I am waiting on either my or my wife’s college loan return before I can really get going, so in the meantime, I can poke around and second guess everything!
I’m just wondering . . . what are your thoughts on overclocked graphics cards? I have seen quite a few around, and people seem to be divided in opinion. I know that some VERY overclocked cards are unique specimen that can’t necessarily be duplicated manually from stock. To add to that, I have no interest in frying a $200 graphics card on my first build.
On the other hand, I have seen benches that seem to indicate performance gains in the 5-10 fps range . . . which could be considered significant or not, I guess. Either way, I have found myself looking at all of these options, and I have narrowed them down to these:
Sapphire Toxic 4890 (Vapor-X Cooling) – $250
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102840
Core Clock: 960 MHz
Shader Clock: 1051 MHz
Memory Clock: 1050 MHz
Memory Size: 1 GB
Memory Type: 256-bit DDR5
EVGA GTX 275 FTW – $285
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130479
Core Clock: 713 MHz
Shader Clock: 1512 MHz
Memory Clock: 2520 MHz
Memory Size: 896 MB
Memory Type: 448-bit GDDR3
Diamond Radeon X0C Edition – $219
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814103076
Core Clock: 925 MHz
Shader Clock: ?
Memory Clock: 1050 MHz
Memory Size: 1 GB
Memory Type: 256-bit DDR5
So, I know there’s more to consider, but my brain is already fried just thinking about these specs. I guess none of if it matters, really, as the benchmarks will typically speak for themselves. But it seems like benches are back and forth regarding which cards are the top performers.
One “x-factor” I am considering is the Vapor-X cooling on the Toxic card. Although it’s no longer available on Newegg, rave reviews were pretty much unanimous. A handful of other reviews and forum posts seem to indicate that the great cooling of Vapor-X is well documented.
So, what do you think? Is any of it worth it? Should I just get a stock 275/4890 and leave all of this worrying to the real enthusiasts?
It’s so funny that you’re getting the computer piece by piece. I guess you are spreading out the enjoyment of buying, receiving and unwrapping your toys. That can be good, too.
Re: overclocked graphics cards, if you buy it overclocked from a reputable company like that ones you mentioned (Sapphire, EVGA, Diamond), then you don’t have much to worry about. Just check the newegg user reviews to see if there is a general problem. If not, then no worries. Anyways, if there is an issue, you can always return it and get it replaced.
Whether it’s worth the additional money…sometimes that’s questionable. As you said, 5-10 more fps doesn’t always matter. Usually these pre-overclocked cards do come at premium prices. So it’s up to you whether you want to drop the cash.
Hmmm….. I think you will be perfectly happy buying the stock model and saving the money to buy games or something else. Your computer is going to perform great, so a little boost like this won’t matter that much.
Batman: Arkham Asylum seems like a free bonus for a lot of the GTX 275’s. I haven’t played it, but reviewers are saying it’s a great game. So get a stock card, get the free game and save the $40-50 cost of the game.
Heh, man this stuff is tough!
So, I found out that ASUS just released this motherboard:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131406
It’s Micro ATX, supports DDR3 and the new AM3 processors. No support for Crossfire or SLI, but I was probably not going to do that, anyway. So this is a major development for me, as up until now I had not seen any really desirable Micro ATX motherboards for the new AM3 chips.
The way I look at it, AMD’s asking price is consistently generous, and performance is (heh) “phenomenal”. I would love to support them, frankly.
Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition – $190
ASUS Micro ATX EVO – $95
In comparison:
Core i7 920 – $270
EVGA Micro ATX X58 – $210
So it’s pretty significant, I think (a difference of $195). Even if I went with a cheaper 1366 board from MSI or something, the AMD setup would be almost $150 less. So, here it is. A choice between pure performance and stick-it-to-the-man great value. Hmph. This is tough.
As a very minor aside, I would have to e-mail Corsair to request the AM3 brackets for the H50 (some of the first models only shipped with Intel brackets) . . . but that’s hardly even worth mentioning.
Even if I got the new PIIX4 965 (which is $230, and on par with the Q9650), I would be dealing with a $150 surplus . . . harumph. :/
Interesting article with some good benchmarks:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3619&p=1
Heh, you still there? I know it’s only been about three days, but to a guy still building his rig, that’s an eternity. Fortunes could have been made and squandered!
I like your new header graphic, bytheway.
Hey, sorry. I’ve been spending all my time playing Champions Online. When I’m not playing, I’m planning my superheroes’ leveling or debating issues in the forums. It’s a bit of a sickness…I get really addicted to MMORPG’s when I first start playing them. My interest usually tapers off really quickly, though. I can’t stay loyal to one MMORPG for years like so many other people.
Anyways…
That article from anandtech covers everything you need to know. Whether the cost savings is worth the performance loss is ultimately up to you.
I had a similar decision when I built my computer. The phenomII was much cheaper, but I still went with the i7.
The AMD chip is the cheaper option, but the i7 is clearly the superior chip. Based on the benchmarks, the AMD is on par when dealing with single processor applications (many games), but the i7 is much better when applications are optimized for multiple processors.
Looking into the future, most applications and games are going to be optimized for multiple processors. So the i7 is the better choice for longevity.
It depends what you want your computer to do. For everyday work, either chip will be fine. The AMD chip will probably be just fine with all the games coming out in the next few years, too.
Personally, I would buy the i7 again, if I was building a computer again right now. If you look at all the non-gaming benchmarks, the i7 is a far better performer. Unfortunately, in the tech world, you often have to pay a premium to get the best.
Heh, I game exactly the same way.
So yeah, this is a tough decision. I think both companies are very good at what they do. Intel screams ahead, leaving dumbfounding performance, clumsy upgrade paths, carnage and higher prices in its wake. I say, “Awesome.” AMD stays a few steps behind, losing in benchmarks, keeping prices lower, and keeping upgradeability intact. I say, “Great.” Win-win. I don’t think it’s a matter of better or worse, but what you need.
That said, the undertow of the enthusiast world is powerful, and I think it’s easy to get sucked in. Before you know it, a moderate user like myself is seriously considering GTX285’s in triple SLI (which I was for about 20 minutes one night)! That’s how you know it’s time to refocus.
My initial goal in all of this was to build a graphics/gaming computer that could effortlessly run Adobe Creative Suite and would make mince meat of my cousin’s $1500 Mac. And I wanted it to do so for the same price (or less). As it turns out, this will be no problem with a top tier AMD rig. With Intel, I could probably get a comparably priced build, but probably not Core i7, and probably not with a smooth upgrade path.
So I guess I find myself more in the cost-effective camp of AMD than the rip-roaring processing assault camp of Intel. The Core i7 is ridiculous, no question. But as I told someone today, “For the average user, buying an i7 right now is like flying to work in a rocket ship.” Sure it’s fun, and you get there in 4 seconds . . . but is it the best plan?”
Also, the thing that I try to bear in mind when reading forum posts at HardOCP or Tom’s about i7 “destroying” Phenom II chips is this: all of these chips are GROSSLY overqualified for me. Just blazing fast. After all, when it’s all said and done, all that matters is that we make apple sauce out of those ridiculous Macs, right?
On an entirely separate note, looking at the ASUS board, I see that it supports dual channel DDR3. I’ve been mulling over this dual channel stuff, and I am torn. 4GB (2×2), 6GB (2×2x2), or 8GB (2×2x2×2)? The 4GB and 8GB would effectively utilize dual channel, as I understand it, and 6GB would not. But I’ve read that the effect of dual and triple channel has been somewhat overstated. Also, I’m wondering if 8GB or 6GB would be a noticeable improvement over 4GB. What has your experience been?
Heh, to finish (and refute) the lame rocket ship analogy . . . you might say that in the near future we will be working in space stations, eh?
Just for fun (and perspective), the rig I am leaving behind:
http://www.superwarehouse.com/HP_Compaq_Business_Desktop_Dc7600/AF846AWABA/ps/623312
Oh, hey. After that HP, you’re going to enjoy your computer whether you get the AMD or drop a little more cash and get the i7.
The AMD will definitely be perfect for your purposes. Since you don’t have years of experience with hardcore gaming computers, I think you’re going to be a lot more forgiving. The games will look and play great and Adobe CS will run just fine, too.
About the dual channel, honestly, I’ve never really tested it, so I’m not really sure how big of an impact it makes. But I’m sure that having enough memory is more important. It’s far better to have too much, rather than too little.
It depends on what you plan to do. Do you open a ton of windows and applications at one time? In Adobe CS, do you work with huge files?
For everyday work, 4GB will probably be fine. For gaming, 4GB is fine. But it really depends on your needs.
Memory isn’t too expensive and it’s easy to upgrade and install. If you do plan to overclock, it is important to buy quality RAM, though. But there are good deals to be found. Memory manufacturers are always competing heavily for customers.
LOL.
The i5 750 debuts on Newegg at $209.
GIGABYTE Crossfire Mobo for $149.
Sigh. It never ends.
Someone in the Overclock forums got a screen shot before they were deactivated.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img26/9513/1252106973761.png
Huh, not sure why that link seems to be on the fritz. Here’s the forum page, if you’re interested.
http://www.overclock.net/hardware-news/570117-newegg-core-i5-i7-lga1156-now-3.html
Last overzealous post of the night.
So there’s been a development. I’ve read about this in tons of forums, but it never occurred to me that this could be a possibility. I live near a Microcenter. It’s 10 minutes away.
So that knocks about $100 off the price of an i7 920. Sheesh, so here we are:
AMD Build
GIGABYTE 785GMT AM3 – $95.00
AMD Phenom II X4 955 Processor – $190.00
4GB Mushkin DDR3 1600 RAM – $90.00
AMD Components – $375.00
i7 Build
MSI X58M LGA 1366 Micro ATX - $170.00
Intel Core i7 920 Processor – $200.00
6GB Patriot DDR3 1066 RAM – $110.00
i7 Components – $480.00
i5 Build
GIGABYTE P55M LGA 1156 Micro ATX – $150.00
Intel Core i5 750 Processor – $210.00
4GB Mushkin DDR3 1600 RAM – $90.00
i5 Components – $450.00
So, given the Microcenter development, i5 basically makes no sense, to my mind. I’m not even sure the AMD build makes any sense, now. I mean, it’s a difference of roughly $100. Sure both systems would blow my needs to kingdom come, but the i7 is a significantly better value.
Ah, the joys of component shopping.
(I actually do enjoy it!)
Heh, component shopping is always like that. There is always something new just around the corner. At some point, you have to finally decide that you don’t want to wait any longer, take the plunge and click the ‘buy’ button.
I think you’ll be happy with any of your choices right now. It’s just a matter of getting the best value for your money.
If you can get a i7 920 for $200, then that’s a great buy right now. Everywhere I usually look for discount prices, it’s still $280.
The i5 seems like a very good performer. Hmm… It is possible that AMD will have to cut their prices to compete with Intel’s new processors. So it might be worth waiting…
Well, I’d still go with the i7, especially at the $200 price point.
So I went to Microcenter today for the first time. All I can say is, “Wow.” That place is a gigantic superstore of computer components. Newegg doing a Best Buy impression. I couldn’t help smiling while I roamed the facility, wide-eyed as a 5-year-old at Christmas. I will definitely be returning (heh, they’re actually hiring . . . and I’m currently unemployed . . . just sayin’
).
And to make matters better, they have the i5 750 for sale already. Guess what it’s going for? Go on, guess. Don’t cheat and read ahead!
$179.
Pair that with a motherboard for $149 and some dual channel RAM, and you’ve got your self a contender for my next build. The i7 920 may still be a better value, but I will have to learn more about i5.
There was some confusion regarding hyper-threading at Microcenter. When I asked, “But it doesn’t use hyper-threading, right?” the sales person seemed half-sure that it did.
It said so in the system, too . . . but then again it was listed as “Socket 1136,” so they may still be burning in their inventory listings. Anyway, just a little update on the state of the build.
Heh, maybe I’ll even get an interview this weekend!
Oh wow. I never heard of Microcenter until you mentioned it and now I wish there was a Microcenter near my house. A gigantic superstore of computer components…I could probably spend days just roaming around. Online shopping is okay (and usually cheaper), but I hate waiting for the UPS guy to finally show up at my door.
Sounds like it could be a fun place to work and the employee discount would be awesome, heh. Good luck!
Hey ferv0r!
It’s been a while since I posted an update. And it’s actually not an update. I’m just wondering if you’d read or heard about the new ATI DX11 cards . . . specifically the HD5870.
Some “leaked” benchmarks . . . with a grain of salt, of course.
http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/lis … 9#32575589
http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/lis … 7#32575657
http://www.techpowerup.com/103786/First_Radeon_HD_5870_Performance_Figures_Surface.html
The CF benchmarks look crazy!
I am hoping DX10 prices take a huge dive in the coming weeks so maybe I can afford a GTX 285. Either way, it will definitely be interesting.
And of course the NVIDIA launch will be another story entirely.
Sorry if some of those links are broken. WordPress does some weird things to links, sometimes. Either way, you can easily Google “5870 benchmarks” . . . as there are only about 3 or 4 graphs circulating at the moment.
In case you can’t find anything, the 5870 looks to be on a GTX 295 level . . . some benchmarks show it surpassing the 295. Some highlights, if I remember correctly:
Crysis
[5870: Single GPU] 1920×1200, 8xAF 4xAA – 44 FPS
[5870: Crossfire] 1920×1200, 8xAF 4xAA – 69 FPS
Stalker Clear Sky
[5870: Crossfire] 2560×1600, 8xAF 4xAA – 46 FPS
Here’s another attempt at a link:
http://www.overclock.net/ati/573170-definitive-ati-5870-5xxx-thread.html
Nice!
It looks very promising and it’s great that ATI looks to be surpassing nVidia on the high end. There always needs to be a stiff competition between the two companies to drive performance and lower prices.
If it performs as well as the benchmarks indicate and the price is $299, it could very well drive down prices for existing nVidia cards. But it might not happen right away.
Heh, you are stuck in the endless progression of technology because you aren’t buying all your components at one time. As a result, there is a greater chance for something new and great to show up on the horizon, making you hesitate even longer.
Since I bought all my components at one time, it was much easier for me to take a snapshot of the current technology and make an immediate decision on what to buy.
Yay! So, this may not be big news to anyone else, anymore. But it is to me.
I have read and re-read. I have shopped around. I have bled and shed tears. And so after much ado, I finally have my build down to a price I can be happy with. No matter what comes out, I am going with this!
If these prices go down, great. But I’m sticking with these components. Whew.
Antec Mini P180 – $80.00
Corsair H50 Hydro – $80.00
Core i5 750 – $160.00
GIGABYTE GA-P55M Motherboard – $130.00
Antec TruePower New 650W – $110.00
1TB WD Caviar Black – $95.00
4GB OCZ Reaper DDR3 – $110.00
EVGA GTX 275 – $230.00
Acer 23″ Widescreen LCD – $190.00
Total – $1185.00
That’s it. I’m done!
Grats on finally deciding on your components! Everything looks good to me. I’m sure you’ll be very happy with it.
Now you just have to order and build it! That’s fun too.
Good luck!